Talk:Otto Octavius (Duplicate) (Earth-616)
Real Otto This is the real otto octavius, not a duplicate--Antoinejd34 (talk) 03:48, May 4, 2017 (UTC) :He is a digitized copy of the psyche of the original Otto Octavius with memories up to his defeat at the hands of Spider-Man in Spider-Verse, transferred into the body of a clone of Spider-Man spliced with his own DNA. While he is real, he is still a duplicate of the original. Arawn 999 (talk) 04:02, May 4, 2017 (UTC) ::Why does he believe himself to be the original and why are we expected to treat him as such? SuperFan95 (talk) 04:51, November 23, 2018 (UTC) :::From his perspective, he is the original; however, the reader learned in that this iteration is actually the deceased original's backup plan. -- Annabell (talk) 05:22, November 23, 2018 (UTC) Real Otto (Confirmed) According to the Spider-Geddon Handbook Vol 1 1 there is no distinction between this and the original Doctor Octopus, they are bot the same men, and this page and Otto Octavius (Earth-616) should be merged. If that's not enough for you, here are some precedences that would also justify the merger: * First, going back to the original death of Doctor Octopus back in and his subsequent resurrection in . Since his mind was completely gone, Lady Octopus used the memories of the Master Programmer, an artificial intelligence created from a copy of Otto's mind prior to his death in Spectacular #221. This copy of memories was missing memories of what happened prior to his death (particularly learning Peter Parker's secret identity). Although this was Otto's original body, it was the mind of the Master Programmer that was transferred into the body. Yet, it is still considered the original Doctor Octopus. * Another example: The Red Skull. The Skull seemingly died in . He then turned up alive in a clone body of Captain America in . This is still considered the same Red Skull even though it was a copy of his mind transferred into a new body. He was still considered the original Red Skull when he was assassinated by Winter Soldier in and his mind was transferred into the body of Alexander Lukin. That said, the clone that first appeared in would be considered a different entity because, although it is a clone of the Red Skull, it didn't have the mind of the original Skull transferred into it. Its memories stop at 1942. * On the same token, the Adolf Hitler clone, AKA the Hate-Monger. When Adolf Hitler was killed in his mind was transferred into a clone body. As explained in , every time the Hate-Monger is killed his mind is transferred into a new clone body. None of these later clone bodies are considered separate entities. Distinctions: The handbooks state that the Hate-Monger's mind is a copy of Adolf Hitler but a distinct entity. However, every time his mind is transferred into a new clone body it is not a copy, but literal mind transfer. Other distinction: Nazi X, another Hitler clone, is a separate entity based on copies of Hitler's mind. Based on these universally accepted constants, and other supporting evidence, this page should be merged with the main Otto Octavius page. Nausiated (talk) 18:26, December 10, 2018 (UTC) ::I agree with Nausiated's proposal, and also reference Tony Stark's current identity crisis of whether he's the "real" or "original" Tony, since both his mind (Siege) and body (IM #600) are reconstructions. If we didn't create a second Tony Stark (Earth-616) page for his personality back-up from Invincible Iron Man #24, we shouldn't have the Octopi on separate pages. Monolith616 (talk) 19:43, December 12, 2018 (UTC) ::: Speaking of Iron Man (thanks for reminding me of another example Monolith), we also don't consider the Tony Stark who appeared in a separate identity. As long-time readers would know, Tony Stark-616 was killed in , and his place on the Avengers was replaced with "Teen Tony" of Earth-96020. When Teen Tony sacrified himself in , he was replaced with Stark-616 in the Heroes Reborn Universe and onwards. It was later explained in some story or another in 1998 (the specific issue escapes me) that when Franklin Richards saved all those that were sacrificed themselves during Onslaught, he resurrected Stark-616 and merged him and Teen Tony together. Although we differentiate between Tony and Teen Tony pre-Onslaught, it is generally excepted that merged form Post-Onslaught is Tony-616 and not a separate entity.Nausiated (talk) 20:51, December 12, 2018 (UTC) So, after the events of the Superior Spider-Man # 11 and # 12, is it possible to consider that the true Otto Octavius has returned? After all, this is his original body, restored by Mephisto. Yes, this is a copy of the consciousness of the original Otto, but it is now in his original body. This is clearly a merger. I think this situation completely repeats the one that happened during the first resurrection of Octavius in the 90s. AlexDot20 (talk) 16:30, October 31, 2018 (UTC) Practicality Having separate pages for these successor-with-the-same-history characters makes navigating the wiki very annoying. * There's a single paragraph with one key link to this article in the original, but if you skipped to Powers and Abilities, Notes, Trivia, you'd easily miss it. * 99% of that character's history is also this character's history, but we don't see it here. * The Notes and Trivia for the original should be here as well, but aren't. * What about trying to find all appearances of Otto Octavius? That's pretty difficult now as well. * 80 quotations the user might never see. The links to third-party sites that might never get clicked. * See here for an even worse example: James Madrox (Bartender) (Earth-616). These deaths and resurrections from a backup should be considered more like brain damage than anything else, i.e. they 'forgot' some of their own history. No-one else forgot. No-one acknowledges the difference in-universe, so it has no useful meaning. Remember, we use labels for 'communication ', and this article is an example of bad communication. Psicraft (talk) 18:03, January 23, 2019 (UTC) More Precedence So over the past year and a bit I have been reading every Spider-Man comic published. Most recently, I've been powering my way through the 2010s Spider-Man stories. Reading everything from Superior Spider-Man to Secret Empire it is incredibly clear that there is only one Otto Octavius here -- at least from a narrative standpoint. There is also a bit of a double standard here when it comes to dealing with Peter Parker and his role in the whole thing. Allow me to elaborate.... The two main pieces of information are specifically and which explains the whole body swap thing that happened during Superior Spider-Man. In ASM #700, Peter's mind was mostly transferred into Otto's body before it physically died. ASM V4 #20 explains that a fragment of Peter's mind remained in his body, explaining the "ghost" of Peter Parker that lived on in his body while Otto was in charge. Furthermore, in ASM V4 #20, when they cloned Otto a new body from his old one, it was cloned with the majority of Peter Parker's mind that was trapped in that body when it died. Yet we don't consider this consciousness a separate entity from Peter Parker -- IE, there is no separate page for this minor moment where there was a Doctor Octopus body that was still alive with a copy of Peter Parker's mind in it. But I'm getting ahead of myself here... When you consider the Superior Spider-Man run and Spider-Verse... When Otto loses in , Otto creates that failsafe that copies his memories and personality in his 2099 tech to persevere after he later died in . While ASM V3 15 makes it clear that Otto has no memory of anything that happened in -31, there is no indication that Otto didn't recover those memories by other means. I should point out that the Living Brain was Otto's right-hand-man during the Superior Spider-Man run and was likely keeping a record of Otto's activities at that point and we all know that Otto possessed the Living Brain prior to the Clone Conspiracy before getting his body back. The absence of evidence that Otto closed those gaps in his memory doesn't mean that he never remembered them, but even then, there is no confirmation. That all said, if you read the narrative of all of these stories -- as they were all written by Dan Slott -- he has intended them to all be the original Doctor Octopus, not separate beings. Even after Otto clones his original body and when he later transferred his mind to the Proto-Clone at the end of the Clone Conspiracy. Nausiated (talk) 02:54, February 18, 2019 (UTC) :: Doesn't there need to be some sort of policy in place so there's actually a process for getting these decisions made? This 'discussion' has been on-going for two years with almost no dissenting voices, so why is the article still here? Psicraft (talk) 18:07, March 29, 2019 (UTC) Clones in comic Just thought I give my 2-cents for this being merge with the main Ock page by given what I learnt about clones in the comic industry. Basically there are 3 types of clones in comics. There's the grunt clones, new characters clones and the legacy clones. The grunt clones are obvious. They are the clones that are essentially made into soldiers or grunts to serve under a villain. These are usually mindless people given order that they will follow without arguments. Next is the New Character clones. These are the clones of a character that take one their own distinct personalities and storylines. Some may have the memories of the original but with their own personalities and storylines. Examples of these are Ben Reilly, Kaine Parker, X-23 etc. You wouldn't confuse them with the original. Finally you have legacy clones which are basically the same characters, with the same personality and memories, which the same motivations. Using the 2 most frequent people who are constantly being clones, Mr. Sinister and Jackal. Both of these characters are constantly being killed only to return in cloned bodies, with the same memories. Doc Ock fall under this category as it is the same personality in a new body. He is not a new character and has the same personality as his original body. Thus it should be considered that this entry and the main entry are the same person. --Komic (talk) 17:00, August 6, 2019 (UTC) He doesnt have the same personality at all , the real otto learned that to sacriface himself to save others, something that this Otto a copy without the last weeks of the life of the real Otto doesnt undertand. Merging them would confuse people give that the actitude of Otto in the end of the Superior Spiderman Run es completly different from the accittude of the duplicate. Jackal being the real one was a huge point in the last Spiderman run because he was only obeying Ben beleving he was a clone. --User:Hulkling 18 1:48, August 11, 2019 (UTC) New argument to merge this page I'm fine either way if these pages are merged or not, but History of the Marvel Universe Vol 2 6 says something interesting. A direct quote from a panel says this about Otto taking over Peter's mind: "Though the transposition was eventually reversed, Otto lived on in a body cloned from a hybrid of Parker's DNA and his own." The transposition refers to the mind-swap, and it says Otto lived on in a cloned body, not as a clone like, say, the Red Skull clone (which the issue also explicitly calls "a clone of the Red Skull"). So, I think this issue is saying that there is a difference, that this Otto is not a duplicate, but the original. And that's what Marvel has tried to make clear anyway. Anyone want to go back to this debate and argue for or against the merging of these pages?Ben 1,000,911 (talk) 21:03, December 22, 2019 (UTC)